Jennifer Locke
December 31 2010
"Black/White (Plaster)", at the Marina Abramovic Institute West, 2009
The Orchard Project: Lately I have been drawn toward things that have absolutely no reason for being together; like a unicorn with a potato stuck on its horn. Last night I went to the county fair, and I wanted to go to the visual art section. You know what you are going to get when you walk in there: lots of sunsets. In a way I admire artists that toil over those kind of pieces. But there was one painting in there that I thought was amazing. It had to be from a savant, because it was gripping. It was a bucolic nature scene, and in the corner there was a squirrel head that was having a stare-down with the viewer. There was no rhyme or reason for having the squirrel head in the corner of the painting. I admired this because I have way too much education to ever find that place. Anytime I try to do that it fails.
Jennifer Locke: Someday, I'll get back to that place.
"Black/White (Glue)", at the Marina Abramovic Institute West, 2009
OP: Can you talk a little bit about your former job? Any crazy stories, such as someone just walking out?
JL: I did have people walk out. I had one who wanted heavy humiliation, he came in --I don't really remember the scene at all-- and I think its going well, and suddenly he gets up and says, "I'm not going to take this from you." And he put on his clothes and walked out. I have had wrestling clients get mad, if I was winning. (And I realize, too, that people ask for things and they don't know what they are asking for, especially with psychological play)
OP: What do you think of people who are into baby play? When they put on their baby gear and when they get the gear on and assume that role, is it a release for them?
JL: Yes, totally. I think people crave that power exchange because they want to be taken care of and want someone else to be calling the shots. It is totally cathartic. There are various aspects of it. Lately I've been thinking about this movie directed by Terry Jones that I saw when I was younger called "Personal Services." It's about this woman, or Madame, who starts an S&M house- well, actually it is a house of prostitution but it caters to clients who want something kinky. I remember thinking it was so funny, and looked like so much fun. Everybody is playing dress-up: old men are dressed up like school girls. It was totally ridiculous and fun. When you are an adult, "pretending" is not really allowed. So this is a situation where you walk in, you make an agreement with another adult, and then you choose roles. Like, I am the mean principal, and then you are the student. Maybe you want to be spanked, so I get to do this scene where it's like, "Johnny, you know why you are here don't you?" It's fun. It is acting, but also accessing a part of yourself which is already there, but you never get to let out. How often do you get to really beat the crap out of somebody, and they enjoy it? Sometimes I’ve played, I’ve been shocked at the things that come out of my mouth. Someone gives you a frame, and says, “here is this world, we are going to go in there together, and we are going to have this adventure, and we’ll hopefully both have a really good time,” and then you are done. It's engaging in taboo behavior, in a context where it is safe and agreed upon, and I got to make a living at it.
OP: And usually the other person leaves feeling a release.
Jennifer: Yeah, well it would be like if you and I were to having a screaming match with each other, and a fist fight, with rules, like you are not allowed to punch me in the face. And then we did and knew it was pretend. Imagine what a release that would be. Because it would be like, “okay, you can call me anything you want.” It is going to this taboo dark place where there’s all this repressed shit that you feel like doing all the time.
I would never want to actually injure anyone, but imagine this frame where you could channel some need that you don't usually get to express.
"Black/White (Ink)", at the Marina Abramovic Institute West, 2009
OP: Do you think that the way these people act during play is directly related to something in their life that they don't have control over, or they have too much control over?
JL: That is really difficult to answer, because people always want to know why someone is into a particular thing. I can't tell you how many people have asked, "why do you think I like this?" I think it's just such a weird, incomprehensible thing that no one really understands. Some people have a very formative, specific memory that allows them to understand why they presently act the way they do. But others really can't, there is nothing specific, and it is very subjective and individual. So it is complicated.
OP: What about couples?
JL: I've seen couples. I had a really good client, and once he started dating someone, they started coming in together. There have also been couples that haven't been equally into it. I would try to make sure that at least they were both okay with it. I had one couple come in, and I could tell she was a little uptight, so in a situation like that I would try to make a connection with the woman. Later they both revealed to me that the man was feeling really bad that he had these urges and drives to do something like this; they were Christians and had been praying over it together. For some people it is like a sexual preference; you cannot control it. It is just a really intense need. So I figured all I could do was give my opinion, and let them know that I don't think that there is anything wrong with it. And I don't. I think that the human psyche is a mystery; you are here on this planet you might as well indulge your pleasures. As long as no one is getting hurt, or you are hurting yourself, this kind of activity is not really harmful hurting. Some people are really tortured over these feelings; they are self-deprecating or have religious values that conflict.
OP: I was going to ask you about that. You know that character that was outed recently; a very famous evangelic preacher. He had a huge congregation, he was interested in little boys and did crystal meth. Maybe you can speculate on this; but do you think that he being a forthright pious man and his duality with a dark-rooted sin (in his mind) does that make it more exciting for him? He was also Bush's spiritual advisor. How would you evaluate where he is coming from and what did you see in people that saw you?
JL: Sure. I saw all ranges of people. Some people don't make much money and save up. I have also seen a judge, I've had some very rich clients. But my boundaries in the last five years became so strict that it didn't really matter because I had a set rate, I didn’t hustle for more money. But in terms of the psyche, and duality, I don't think that only relates to S&M, but I will say that crossing or transgressing some kind of boundary or threshold is always exhilarating. So guilt, shame and all these things that might be considered negative feelings, seem to heighten experience. I'm not saying that you can't have an incredible experience without these feelings, but I do think it makes it more enticing. Especially if someone has a binary way of thinking, thinking of things as good and evil. Like, I am a good person, but I have these urges! It's funny because I was listening to this radio show on the way down here, and I felt that the tone was Christian. They were talking about this guy who had a sexual addiction, and it was interesting, because if you took that language out of it, I could see and relate to what he was saying on some level. But at the same time, they were using this language of sin. Which is very different than just noticing an obsession with something and wanting to spend some time away from it. It is saying that an omnipresent force doesn't want you to do this one thing. To me, it is a deflection of responsibility. And some people are really tortured over their thoughts and urges. One guy that used to see me was getting married, and he kept saying that he wouldn't see me after his wedding. Like he was going to start a new life and would think and feel differently. Also, a lot of people don't even want to tell their partners about it. I can't, and don't mean to speak for others, but I know for a fact that not only did some of my clients feel like they couldn't experience this with their partners, but they weren't even willing to discuss it with them. And the lack of communication is what is really scary to me. It' s interesting how uncomfortable people are with themselves, yet they are willing to go to a stranger to expose their vulnerabilities.
OP: I would imagine that would be less of a risk.
JL: Right, that is what it is, no strings attached. Going to a professional is totally anonymous, I didn’t care if they used real names, I just asked that they stick with the same one. Really, no one had to tell me anything about themselves. People would get very confessional, of course, but that is why people go to a professional. It would be like the difference between getting a massage from your partner and a massage from a masseuse. The latter will actually give you a really massage, whereas your partner might give you a short one, or it could start turning into sex.
"Black/White (Plaster)", at the Marina Abramovic Institute West, 2009
OP: If you could come up with one event or memory where you escaped death?
JL: Oh that's easy. When I was a teenaged drug addict and shooting speed, I was at my dealer's house, and usually I never got free drugs ever, but when I hung out at her house, I got free shots. We were hanging out and I was cleaning her house or something, and at one point I did a shot and everything went black. I couldn't see but I was coherent, so I told her, can you keep an eye on me? I think I just did too much. I sat there and was in blackness for five minutes. And then fifteen minutes later was doing more drugs. That was a small situation, but the fact that I got out of that whole thing without catching a disease, or dying is kind of amazing.
I almost poked my eye the other day. My friend came over, it was my birthday and I was in Portland because I just had done a show at Rocksbbox. My good friend and I went out to dinner and she brought me this plant as a gift. I've been really into gardening lately, so I wanted her to help me identify this one plant. It was super dark out, and the flash light that I keep outside wasn't there. I thought it was fine, so I picked up this mystery plant in the backyard and then I go to put the plant down, and a stake that I had put in the ground hits me a millimeter from my eyeball. I thought of Equis-- this play that they turned into a film with Richard Burton, where this kid has a sexual thing with horses and he puts their eyes out with a spike. Also it reminded me of Oedipus Rex. I was having visions of being blinded.
OP: Is there artwork or performances you have done that in retrospect you would have done recently, or even regretted?
JL: Yes! A couple that were not so good. One that stands out, I did not too long ago and somebody kinda talked me into it. I wasn't really..well, I don't really want to talk too much about it, actually. I learned from it, but I wish I hadn't done it. I just didn't feel comfortable with it. With performance, there's no "redos." It's really risky which is why I like it. Problems seem to arise when I don't have everything formally situated exactly as I want it. Going in half-cocked. Maybe it was okay, but it seemed not really in control. Which is funny, because I’ve walked into SM scenes all the time with specific activities and then just kind of improvise. I was doing a lot of talking in the piece, which I don't usually do in my work. And, it was bad. I hated it. I felt completely demoralized.
OP: When you are performing, do you view your audience as passive or active?
JL: I would say that when I'm thinking about the piece the audience and how it is watching, and how I am allowing my piece to be perceived is really important. As far as thinking of them as passive or not, I don't think of them as passive, as I want them to be really observant. I see them as an extension, or a part of the piece, definitely. I don't want to be hitting them over the head, but at the same time they are a part of the piece. The audience is a huge part of the content. I feel like I am often asked, "Who is your audience?”
I honestly don't think about demographics very much, whether I should or shouldn't as an performance artist. The bottom line is that most of the people who see my work are an art audience, though it certainly changes at every venue. I did a show at the Garage once, it was a part of "100 Performances in the Hole," and it was a rowdy show. Each performance was two minutes in duration. That was totally different than doing something at a space like Yerba Buena. So, I think more about the venue and how the audience is situated in the space than the type of people watching my performance. I also have been considering the actual word "performance," and calling them “actions” instead. At this point, the word feels convoluted. The show I did at YBCA was organized by the performing arts curator. I was in the show with dancers, and we were all performing consecutively on a theatrical stage. The original piece was supposed to go on for an hour, people could come and go during that time. After I realized that I would be performing on a stage, I tweaked my piece a little bit, but in the end the context was a bit wrong for the piece. But, the advantage of the stage allowed me to get some amazing documentation. This made me start thinking about how even if the performance itself isn’t what I was expecting, I may end up with some really good footage. It's really interesting to me that as a live action it wasn't a success because my audience had an expectation being entertained. That is just really wrong for my work in general. I'm also interested in the idea of videotaping an audience and either adding that to a piece, or making it one in itself. I think it is related to my own interest in power dynamics.
OP: Would you ever consider taping two audiences viewing the one of your actions? Such as, one group who knows very little about art, and another that has a background in art education.
JL: Well, I think that if we are comparing a group of gallery-goers who might view my work in a museum, versus one that might be teenagers from somewhere such as East LA, it starts talking about politics a little bit. This theme is not directly interesting to me. Also, I never really do the exact same piece more than once. The piece I did at YBCA occurred three nights in a row, but I changed each performance slightly. It was interesting because I so rarely do the same thing more than once. Having a piece be a repetition for the purpose of various responses could be of interest to me, but having a piece compare specific demographics isn't so much. But I do think the idea of repetition and the variation that may happen within it could be very interesting.
